FORT MYERS — When Lee County Sheriff’s Deputy James Didio went to Gail Andrews’ Fort Myers home to check her wellbeing early this month, deputies smelled the strong odor of urine and rotting food.
“We could smell this all the way to the road,” Didio wrote in his report about the June 4 check on St. Andrews Circle. “I approached the house and looked in the open front window to see a house full of trash. Crawling over the trash were rats and mice that jumped when I shined my light.”
Trash was strewn all over the bedroom and Didio spotted Andrews, who explained she’d been cleaning. Asked if she lived alone, she said her father had died 10 years ago — and her mother had moved back to Connecticut.
It took more than a week — and a search warrant — for investigators to dig through the trash and find her mother’s skeleton Friday.
And so began an investigation into a bizarre case of a daughter keeping her mother’s death a secret for more than a year. Neighbors weren’t surprised.
“We didn’t know for sure, but we all suspected she died in there,” said Peggy Ward, who last saw Gladys Andrews 10 years ago, while another neighbor saw her five years ago. “She always talked like her mother was alive.”
Tina DeVecchis said she’d complained for two decades, reporting garbage, rats, junk cars, screaming raccoons, caged cats, and foul odors.
“When people call Code Enforcement and they do nothing for 20 years, they could have prevented this problem,” DeVeccchis said. “The rats were huge. She left her mother on the floor. They ate her mother.”
Now, the county medical examiner and a forensic anthropologist are working to confirm the skeleton is Gladys Andrews, who would have been 88 if alive, and how long she's been dead.
“We are still investigating, but we don’t believe foul play was involved,” said Sheriff’s Office spokesman John Sheehan.
Andrews told the News-Press her mother died 14 months ago and the home was in bad shape, she didn’t want to lose it, so she didn’t report it.
On Tuesday, the Lee County Community Development Department slapped a sign on the home, “Unsafe building,” and deputies escorted Gail Andrews inside to get a few belongings.
The sign begins a 60-day process for Andrews to dispute condemnation proceedings. With yellow crime-scene tape still up, code enforcement officers still haven’t been allowed inside.
“The vermin and garbage were enough to deem it unsafe,” said Community Development Spokeswoman Joan LaGuardia, adding that tarps covered the roof. “Legally, we can’t keep her out of it.”
Property records show the two-bedroom, one-bathroom home purchased in 1974 was placed in both Gail and Gladys Andrewses’ names after her father, Andrew John Andrews, died Jan. 25, 1999, at 83.
The sheriff’s report says trash reached 2-feet high, the floor wasn’t visible, and healthy cats were caged.
“I counted at least 10 to 15 full-grown rats in the living room and could hear them in the bedrooms,” Didio wrote. “The walls and trash were covered with roaches and bugs. Some of the roaches were more than an inch long. They were even coming out of the A/C vents.”
At least since 2001, Andrews has been cited for code violations.
“Two times we had to go out there and clean up accumulated trash,” LaGuardia said. “But she would not permit access to the inside.”
Without probable cause, belief that a crime occurred, LaGuardia said a property owner can prohibit anyone from coming inside.
“It’s not uncommon with an eccentric owner for an outside to appear manageable and an inside to be a mystery,” LaGuardia said, adding, however, “There’s never been a case with a dead body. That’s what makes this case remarkable.”
“She will have to improve the safety conditions,” LaGuardia said, adding, however, that Andrews conceded she doesn’t have the money to save her home.
Ward said deputies said the ceilings had caved in and wires hung down. “She told me she nearly froze in the winter because it was so cold and once it got hot, she said she couldn’t do anything,” Ward said.
Ward agreed Andrews wasn’t “mainstream,” but called the former Lee County teacher intelligent, articulate, an animal lover who had little money from her pension check but gave Ward’s grandchildren small gifts for Christmas and Easter.
However, her love for animals extended to the stray cats and rats she fed. She admitted 10 dead cats found inside were accumulated over many years. “She said she didn’t have the money to cremate them or dispose of them properly and didn’t want to throw them out with the trash,” Ward said.
After Andrews allowed DCF investigators inside Friday, she was committed to the Ruth Cooper Center. Before her release Monday, she called Ward, who paid for a $16 taxi ride home. But due to neighbors’ contentious relationship over the odors, rats and garbage, her family didn’t want Andrews staying there.
She begged for a pillow, a flashlight and a hose to wash. “She slept in my grandson’s fort,” Ward said, adding that she gave the vegetarian food and let her inside for breakfast.
She’s since moved to a neighbor’s home; that neighbor couldn’t be reached for comment.
“She’s had it rough,” Ward said of Andrews leaving her job to care for her father and her mother becoming bedridden after falling a week later. “You’d have to be a hard-hearted person not to have sympathy for her.”
DCF officials referred her to other agencies for help.
“When we have cases of hoarding, we will work with the adult to see if we can get services in place to help that person,” said DCF Spokeswoman Erin Gillespie. “However, adults must give permission and allow us to help — unless they are found incompetent to make decisions on their own.”
Andrews would not tell reporters if she was cashing her mother's Social Security checks, and Sheehan, of the Sheriff's Office, declined to say if they're investigating that.
Jon Lasher, a spokesman for the Social Security Administration, also couldn't comment.
"We often conduct investigations involving living persons who conceal the death of a relative in order to continue receiving the deceased’s Social Security benefits," Lasher said. "When our investigations prove such an allegation to be true, we pursue all available criminal, civil and administrative remedies in order to recover the stolen funds and bring the individual to justice."
Showing posts with label death cleanup. Show all posts
Showing posts with label death cleanup. Show all posts
Thursday, June 17, 2010
Tuesday, April 27, 2010
Spaulding Decon offers Free Crime Scene Cleanup to Families of Homicide Victims
Spaulding Decon offers free crime scene cleanup services to families of homicide victims. Offered in Florida, the program covers the cost of cleaning single-family residences and is open to families without the financial means to pay for services.
Apr 27, 2010 – Spaulding Decon, LLC, a fully licensed and certified biohazard cleaning and decontamination business for commercial, residential and industrial locations, is now offering free crime scene cleanup services to families of homicide victims.
Offered across Florida, the program covers the cost of cleaning single-family residences only, and is open to families who do not have the financial means or homeowners insurance to cover crime scene cleanup. It includes cleanup and disposal of carpet, hardwood floors, and all disposal fees. Replacement costs are not included.
“Experiencing the homicide of a family member is tragic enough. But when families discover that they, not the authorities, are responsible for cleaning up the aftermath of their loved one’s violent death, it is a devastating blow to individuals who are already fragile in their grief,” said Laura Spaulding, a former law enforcement officer who founded Spaulding Decon five years ago. “By offering this service, Spaulding Decon is able to alleviate some of the shock, stress and financial hardship involved in dealing with the aftermath of tragedy.”
Certain eligibility requirements apply, including cooperation in the investigation and prosecution, and report of the crime to law enforcement within a reasonable timeframe. Victims who contributed to the crime or committed a crime at the time of the incident are ineligible, and the claim for compensation must be filed within one year of the crime unless good cause is shown for the delay.
For families with homeowners insurance, which typically will cover the cost of crime scene cleanup, Spaulding Decon will file for reimbursement through the insurance company and waive the deductible.
In addition, the company will guide families through the application process for financial assistance to help cover the costs of funerals, grief counseling and other appropriate mental health services, medical care, lost income and various out-of-pocket expenses related to the injury or death.
Since 2005, Spaulding Decon has earned a reputation as one of the few companies in the Tampa Bay area and nationwide to be completely licensed, bonded, certified and insured to properly clean and decontaminate biohazard, blood and crime scenes. In addition to crime, suicide and unattended death scenes and hoarder “pack rat” situations, the company offers professional clean up and decontamination of meth labs, cat and dog waste, rodent droppings, traffic accidents, and odor removal.
Other non-emergency services include medical waste pickup, fingerprint dust removal and tear gas cleanup. For more information about the services offered by Spalding Decon visit www.spauldingdecon.com or call 866-99-DECON.
About Spaulding Decon, LLC
Based in Tampa, Fla., Spaulding Decon provides nationwide service for crime scene cleanup, bio hazard decontamination, meth lab cleanup and hoarder or “pack rat” cleanup. The company is fully licensed and certified for commercial, residential and industrial cleaning services and offers exceptional service guarantees. The staff is trained in the proper cleaning and disposal of hazardous material, and exemplifies the utmost sensitivity and privacy when dealing with victims of traumatic events. Spaulding Decon offers 24-hour service in most areas of the United States. For additional information about Spaulding Decon, please visit www.spauldingdecon.com or call toll-free 866-99-DECON (866-993-3266), 813-298-7122 for the Tampa office, or 407-405-4413 for the Orlando office.
Apr 27, 2010 – Spaulding Decon, LLC, a fully licensed and certified biohazard cleaning and decontamination business for commercial, residential and industrial locations, is now offering free crime scene cleanup services to families of homicide victims.
Offered across Florida, the program covers the cost of cleaning single-family residences only, and is open to families who do not have the financial means or homeowners insurance to cover crime scene cleanup. It includes cleanup and disposal of carpet, hardwood floors, and all disposal fees. Replacement costs are not included.
“Experiencing the homicide of a family member is tragic enough. But when families discover that they, not the authorities, are responsible for cleaning up the aftermath of their loved one’s violent death, it is a devastating blow to individuals who are already fragile in their grief,” said Laura Spaulding, a former law enforcement officer who founded Spaulding Decon five years ago. “By offering this service, Spaulding Decon is able to alleviate some of the shock, stress and financial hardship involved in dealing with the aftermath of tragedy.”
Certain eligibility requirements apply, including cooperation in the investigation and prosecution, and report of the crime to law enforcement within a reasonable timeframe. Victims who contributed to the crime or committed a crime at the time of the incident are ineligible, and the claim for compensation must be filed within one year of the crime unless good cause is shown for the delay.
For families with homeowners insurance, which typically will cover the cost of crime scene cleanup, Spaulding Decon will file for reimbursement through the insurance company and waive the deductible.
In addition, the company will guide families through the application process for financial assistance to help cover the costs of funerals, grief counseling and other appropriate mental health services, medical care, lost income and various out-of-pocket expenses related to the injury or death.
Since 2005, Spaulding Decon has earned a reputation as one of the few companies in the Tampa Bay area and nationwide to be completely licensed, bonded, certified and insured to properly clean and decontaminate biohazard, blood and crime scenes. In addition to crime, suicide and unattended death scenes and hoarder “pack rat” situations, the company offers professional clean up and decontamination of meth labs, cat and dog waste, rodent droppings, traffic accidents, and odor removal.
Other non-emergency services include medical waste pickup, fingerprint dust removal and tear gas cleanup. For more information about the services offered by Spalding Decon visit www.spauldingdecon.com or call 866-99-DECON.
About Spaulding Decon, LLC
Based in Tampa, Fla., Spaulding Decon provides nationwide service for crime scene cleanup, bio hazard decontamination, meth lab cleanup and hoarder or “pack rat” cleanup. The company is fully licensed and certified for commercial, residential and industrial cleaning services and offers exceptional service guarantees. The staff is trained in the proper cleaning and disposal of hazardous material, and exemplifies the utmost sensitivity and privacy when dealing with victims of traumatic events. Spaulding Decon offers 24-hour service in most areas of the United States. For additional information about Spaulding Decon, please visit www.spauldingdecon.com or call toll-free 866-99-DECON (866-993-3266), 813-298-7122 for the Tampa office, or 407-405-4413 for the Orlando office.
Friday, April 23, 2010
Not your typical cleaning ladies

By Jacqueline Green
When Estates residents Alice Jackson and Tracy Gunn are asked that common question, "What do you do for a living?" their answer shocks most people.
That's because these best friends are the owners and operators of Scene Clean, a crime and trauma scene cleanup service.
Although their service deals primarily with murder and unattended death, Jackson and Gunn handle any clean-up that involves bio-hazardous materials from suicides to homeless camps.
The two established Scene Clean three years ago. They both worked in the cleaning industry and shared an interest in forensics. The business caters to crime scenes from Orlando to the Florida Keys.
"Families tend to think that the police handle crime scene clean up but that's not the case," Gunn explains, "Most families do not know where to turn and are left to handle the cleanup themselves, which can be very traumatizing when dealing with grief." In fact, all calls received by Scene Clean come from family members or friends of the deceased. The police only aid them by giving the families a reference list of local cleaning companies who specialize in bio-hazard disposal. For most situations, Gunn says Scene Clean is at the top of the list.
"We are meeting these families on the worst day of their lives, so when we communicate with them we chose our words very carefully," says Gunn. Even in introductions, she says she's hesitant to give her full name because hearing the word, "gun" can arouse an emotional response.
In most cases, she uses her maiden name.
On occasion, the women aid sheriff and police officials in their investigations by finding forensic evidence that could have been overlooked. To this date however, they haven't found anything that was considered vital evidence in an investigation.
When asked about the worst scene they've worked, Jackson and Gunn recalled a case involving an elderly man.
"He had passed away and was not found for a month," says Jackson. "He had about 25 to 30 cats and most of the cats had died as well from starvation. The remaining cats were feasting on the deceased cats when we arrived. Needless to say it was a mess, and the smell of decomposition had attached itself to everything in the residence." The two say the most rewarding part of their unusual job is aiding families at the worst possible time.
"They don't make a bio-hazard suit to protect you from the emotions that come with this job," Gunn says, "but knowing we are bringing relief to the families is a reward in itself." She says trauma clean-up is not something anyone thinks of until they are dealing with the loss of a loved one.
For Jackson this is something that hits close to home.
"I can sympathize with the victims because I lost both of my parents," she says. "I can see their grief and I can relate." According to Gunn, Scene Clean is the only locally-owned trauma cleanup company. She says they also work with insurance companies and offer discounted rates to uninsured customers in need.
Wednesday, May 13, 2009
Crime Scene Cleanup: What It Involves

A crime scene cleanup service is not without its complications. Crime scene cleaning encompasses restoring the crime scene to its original state. When a crime is usually discovered, crime scene cleaners are not called until after officers of the law, like the crime scene investigators, have done their jobs first and have given the go ahead for the cleaners to come in. If you intend to hire a crime scene cleanup company, you must make sure that they are well equipped and fit right to get the job done. A crime scene presents challenging conditions.
The Use Of Protective Gears:
Crime scenes can very well involve the use of hazardous or deadly substances. For safety reasons then, it has become imperative that crime scene cleaners use protective clothing, in addition to protective tools and gadgets. You must see to it that they have all the necessary protective gears and gadgets. The protective clothing can consist of disposable gloves and suits. A disposable gear is preferred nowadays since it offers the best protection against contamination. You use it one time and get rid of it. That way, the dangers of contamination is virtually brought down to zero percent. Protective clothing extends to respirators and the use of heavy-duty industrial or chemical-spill protective boots.
Among the gadgets that a crime scene cleaning company must have are special brushes, special sprayers, and wet vacuum. These special tools ensure added protection against getting into contact with the hazard could very well be present in the crime scene. There is large, special equipment such as a mounted steam injection tool that is designed to sanitize dried up biohazard materials such as scattered flesh and brain. You would also need to check if they have the specialized tank for chemical treatments and industrial strength waste containers to collect biohazard waste.
Of course, any crime scene clean up must have the usual cleaning supplies common to all cleaning service companies. There are the buckets, mops, brushes and spray bottles. For cleaning products, you should check if they use industrial cleaning products. A crime scene cleaning company must have these on their lists:
1 - Disinfectants including hydrogen peroxide and bleaches - The kinds that the hospitals used are commonly acceptable.
2 - Enzyme solvers for cleaning blood stains. It also kills viruses and bacteria.
3 - Odor removers such as foggers, ozone machines, and deodorizers
4 - Handy tools for breaking and extending such as saws, sledgehammers, and ladders
Established crime scene operators also equip themselves with cameras and take pictures of the crime scene before commencing work which. The pictures taken may prove useful for legal matters and insurance purposes. You never know which.
Needless to say, a specially fitted form of transportation and proper waste disposal is also needed. These requirements are specific. As you can imagine, crime scene cleaning is in a different category on its own. A home cleaning or janitorial service company may not be able to cope up with the demands of a crime scene. A crime scene cleanup service requires many special gears and tools that a home cleaning or a janitorial service company does not usually have or does not require. Crime scene cleaning if not done correctly can expose the public to untold hazards.
What Else To Look For In A Crime Scene Cleanup Company
You may also want to hire a company that has established itself. An experienced company with a strong reputation is always a plus but it could be expensive too. You will do well to balance your needs with what is your budget. There are several companies that offer specific prices such as for death scene clean up categories and suicide clean up categories. Most companies own a website and have round the clock customer service as receptionists.
When looking for a suitable crime scene cleaning service, among the first things you need to do is to scout for price quotes. Crime scene cleanup services usually provide quote after they have examined the crime scene and then they give you a definite quote. Factors that are usually considered include the number of personnel that will be needed to get the job done. It also includes the amount of time that might be needed. The nature and amount of the waste materials that need to be disposed will also be factored in. You can be sure that the more sophisticated equipments needed the more expensive it will get.
Crime Scene Cleanup And Your Insurance
For homeowners, the best approach is always to make sure that crime scene cleanup services clauses and provisions are written down on the contracts or policies. The inclusion of crime cleanup services clauses is very common and has become standard clause in most homeowner’s policy. Make sure that you are covered for this unforeseen event. Make sure that your policy directs the crime scene cleaning company to transact directly with the homeowner insurance company. A crime scene cleaning service is usually a standard clause in many homeowners’ insurance clause. These companies often do the paperwork in behalf of clients.
If for some reason you do not have such coverage by any policies relating to crime scene cleanup on your home, there are ways to keep your expenses controlled.
Finding the right company can be very taxing, especially that you have to deal with the emotional stress stemming from the crime itself, especially with a crime scene involving death.
There are many crime scene cleanup companies in operation nowadays. There are reliable professionals that you can hire and prices are relatively competitive. As of recently, crime-scene cleanup services can cost up to $600 for an hour of their service. A homicide case alone involving a single room and a huge amount of blood can cost about $1,000 to $3,000.
In recent years, crime scene cleaning has come to be known as, "Crime and Trauma Scene Decontamination or CTS. Basically, CTS is a special form of crime scene cleaning focusing on decontamination of the crime scene from hazardous substances such as those resulting from violent crimes or those involving chemical contaminations such as methamphetamine labs or anthrax production. This type of service is particularly common when violent crimes are committed in a home. It is rare that the residents move out of the home after it has become a scene of a crime. Most often, the residents just opt to have it cleaned up. That is why, it is very important to hire the best crime scene cleaning company out there. The place needs to be totally free from contamination of any kind. You have to make sure that the company is able to remove all traces of the violent crime that took place. This includes cleaning biohazards that are sometimes invisible to the untrained eye.
Legally speaking, federal laws state that all bodily fluids are deemed biohazards and you should make sure that the cleanup service company you hire understands this and includes it in the cleanup. These things appear as blood or tissue splattered on a crime scene. You must be able to hire a company that is equipped with special knowledge to safely handle biohazard materials. The company must have the knowledge what to search for in any give biohazard crime scene. For instance, the company should be able to tell clues such that if there is a bloodstain the size of a thumbnail on a carpet, you can bet that there is about a huge bloodstain underneath. Federal and State laws have their own laws in terms of transport and disposal of biohazard waste. Make sure that the company you hire has all the permits necessary.
It will also be a huge plus if you could hire people who not only has the special trainings but also who have the nature to be sympathetic. If you are close to the victim and have the cleaning done at the behest of the victim’s relatives, it would matter that the cleaners tread the site with some level of respect. It is a common site that family members and loved ones are often there at scene. In general, when looking for a suitable crime scene cleaners, you would take into considerations the kind of situation that the crimes scene presents and the demands that it require. Crime scene cleaning companies handle a wide variety of crime scenes and prices may vary from one to the other crime scene and one to the other company.
Each type of scene requires its own particular demands not only to make the crime scene look clean and neat on the surface but to make it germ free, and clean inside and to make it free from all deadly and infectious substances. The cleanup cost for biohazards may vary depending on degree of the bio hazard(s) on the scene. There may even be a category that changes the cleanup pricing which usually involves decomposing bodies and carcasses. Likewise, a cleanup of chemical hazards vary, depending on the amount of chemical hazards as well as the grades i.e. how hazardous the substance is in terms of human contact. Prices are also determined by the number of hours and personnel that it would to get the crime scene cleaned. In addition, the "gross factor" from crime scene involving death and gore needs to be taken under consideration regarding the chemicals that will be used as opposed to those crimes' that do not have gore involved.
Tuesday, May 12, 2009
They're called when CSI done

By JODIE TILLMAN, Times Staff Writer
PORT RICHEY - Six liters of blood pump through the average human body. Rick Akin can't stop thinking about what happens when it gets out.
"Tile is great to look at, but grout is porous," he said over breakfast one morning, pointing at the floor of a Denny's restaurant. "Blood would soak through that."
He should know. He's seen blood soak through foam mattresses, seep under toilets and run nearly 9 feet down plumbing pipes. He's seen a stain "this big" underneath an orange shag carpet. He's seen blood stick to gorging flies that then alighted on walls and left little bloody dots.
Akin, 46, has seen all this as co-owner of D-N-A Extreme Clean, a Pasco company that he and pal Rob Debow started nearly two years ago to clean up suicide, homicide and belated discovery scenes. D-N-A is one of about 10 biohazard companies listed in a directory that Pasco Sheriff's Office can provide to victims' families upon request.
Hired by victims' family members or landlords, Akin and Debow don heavy Tyvek suits suits, three pairs of gloves and rubber boots and scrub blood and bodily fluids released as a body decomposes. They try to get rid of the unforgettable odor. They rip up stained carpets and dismantle bathrooms to track the flow of blood and fluids. They disinfect, and they triple bag before they haul the waste away.
Akin is matter-of-fact about the harsh details of this line of work, but he says he's motivated by a desire to help people through the hardest times of their lives.
"It gives me the warm fuzzies to help people," he said.
He has also found a business that suits his obsessive curiosity.
"I've been fascinated by blood spatters for years," he said.
He can't say exactly why, but he tells this story:
Years ago, when he was a teenager in Detroit looking to make some cash, he went to a blood bank to sell plasma. Fifty bucks a pint. He remembers sitting in a recliner and watching the workers hurry by. One of them, he says, dropped a bag of blood.
"Soon as it hit the floor, the blood shot across," he said.
Another worker dropped a bag of just plasma. "It just landed in a big gooey pool," recalled Akin.
He wondered why, so he got a high school science teacher to tell him about the properties of blood.
"When I'm interested in something I do everything I can to learn about it," said Akin. "Kind of like a shade tree mechanic? I'm a shade tree scientist."
Of course, there's another motivation for starting a business: Making money. Costs of D-N-A's services range from $500 to nearly $5,000 depending on the severity of the scene. Homeowners' insurance sometimes pays for the work, and families can also be reimbursed through a state fund for crime victims.
Akin thought the business would make good money, but so far that isn't happening. In two years, they've done about 24 jobs, some of which were just for cigarette smoke removal. Both he and Debow are keeping their day jobs, at least for now: Akin is an equipment technician for Pasco Fire and Rescue Department, and Debow runs a conventional cleaning company.
Akin started D-N-A with money - he won't say how much - borrowed from a friend and has yet to pay him back. None of this has helped out his personal financial situation, either: Akin lost his house to foreclosure earlier this year, and he, his wife and teenage son are now renting a home. Akin said his slow business is partly to blame.
Struggling for solvency is typical in this mostly unregulated industry. Dale Cillian, president of American Bio-Recovery Association and owner of a Phoenix company, said there's no one-stop source for how to operate one of these companies. And biohazard removal alone rarely pays the bills. Many of the roughly 400 biohazard companies, including his, make their money on remodeling the homes after they clean them.
"A lot of these companies go under," he said.
One reason is that marketing is tricky. Selling yourself at a time of suffering for someone else isn't easy.
D-N-A started out with marketing materials, for instance, that featured a hazard symbol. But Akin and Debow decided to go for a more sensitive touch: They changed their icon to a dove, with the tagline "No one should ever have to be a victim twice."
Akin, a friendly man prone to guileless self-promotion - "I'm a tough person to work for because I'm all about safety," he says - also blames law enforcement for not going far enough to make victims' families aware of the industry and managers of apartment complexes for trying to do the work themselves.
"Would they know to pull up the toilet?" he said one day when he and Debow were looking at photographs of an apartment bathroom they'd cleaned.
Few people think about blood as much as he does. But he says everyone should think about it a little more, and he has embarked on a publicity campaign.
He posted a message on a television news Web site - "Who is cleaning up the bloody messes?" - following a story about a homicide. He sent an angry e-mail to federal housing authorities after learning that the maintenance crew at a subsidized housing complex in Spring Hill had cleaned up an apartment where a person's body had been discovered rather than hire a company like his to do the work.
"Bad things happen to good people. And somebody has to be there to help pick up the pieces," Akin said. "Sooner or later, God forbid, you may need somebody like us."
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